Priest of Ronan, Mandral, held moderates a debate on "Luukos v Lorminstra v Gosaena. Who is really the god/goddess of death?" Individuals came to discuss their viewpoints on the matter and some tension was to be expected. The Discussion Room at the Elanthian Conclave seemed to be the place to hold such a discussion. This was presented on Day of the Huntress, Eorgaen 1st at 9 PM (Friday December 1st).

Mikalmas represented Gosaena, Clunk represented Lorminstra, Raelee spoke on Luukos and well Eoghain brought a fourth perspective to the table.

See how it all went down below:

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Mandral softly says, "We shall begin and I expect more may join us shortly."

Mandral clears his throat.

Mandral softly says, "Life. Death. The in-between. The darkness, the light and beyond the pale.  Who really is the god or goddess of death?"

Dirvy softly says, "I believe Jodeco is on the way.  He may be lost within somewhere."

Mandral softly says, "Over the next hour, we will discuss what it means to be the ruler of death. Is it the one that can also bring life? I encourage all opinions during this time as we discuss Luukos, Lorminstra and Gosaena."

Mandral softly says, "So, I can gauge this audience, by show of hands, are there any inclined to speak on behalf of Luukos?"

Mandral softly says, "This pleases me."

Mandral softly asks, "And Gosaena?"

Mikalmas says, "I am hesitant to claim myself as her representative, but I have thoughts."

Mikalmas raises his hand.

Speaking softly to Mikalmas, Mandral says, "When we begin I will like to hear them."

Mandral softly asks, "And Lorminstra?"

Clunk rubs his Lorminstra badge.

Clunk gives his badge a little prod with the tip of his finger.

Mandral softly says, "I am here mostly to moderate, and ensure all sides are heard. Though, it appears no one cared to speak on behalf of Luukos this eve."

Mandral softly asks, "So, Mikalmas, we will begin with you. Who do you feel is the ruler of death?"

Mandral smiles at Mikalmas.

Eoghain asks, "What of the fourth option?"

Eoghain raises an eyebrow.

Speaking softly to Eoghain, Mandral says, "Perhaps."

Mikalmas says, "Oh wow. Talk about being on the spot."

Mikalmas grins.

Speaking softly to Eoghain, Mandral asks, "Would you like to, after Mikalmas, tell us this fourth option?"

Speaking softly to Eoghain, Mandral says, "Then you may present your case, so to speak, shortly."

Mikalmas says, "Being a Cleric for more years than I care to count, I am intimately familiar with the topic of life and death."

Mikalmas says, "I spent much of my youth a devout Ronanite."

Mikalmas says, "Until a very close death shattered my preconceived notions of life and death."

Mandral smiles quietly to himself.

Mikalmas shows Linaine a deeply-hued purple mournbloom tattoo.

Mandral softly says, "Oh?"

Mandral turns an inquisitive ear toward Mikalmas.

Mikalmas says, "Not that I lost respect for Ronan."

Mikalmas says, "Not at all."

Mikalmas shows Mandral a deeply-hued purple mournbloom tattoo.

Mikalmas says, "Just that....over time, with age and wisdom, I come to learn that Death is inevitable.  It does come to us all."

Mikalmas says, "Many of us, including the Arkati themselves, do not like to be reminded of this fact."

Mikalmas says, "But all people will eventually pass through the ebon gate."

Mikalmas says, "ALL living things have a season of life."

Mikalmas says, "Gosaena is the one true Arkati.  Gifted, or perhaps cursed, with the knowledge of when all living things will pass through the ebon gate for their final time."

Mandral softly says, "The one...true..arkati? Interesting. Continue."

Mandral nods at Mikalmas.

Linaine nods in agreement at Mikalmas.

Linaine softly says, "Final is key."

Linaine softly says, "In this discussion."

Mikalmas says, "She knows before a soul is bound to a corpse by Luukos when that soul will finally pass the ebon gate.  She knows before Lorminstra judges when the person she is judging will pass through the gate."

Mikalmas says, "Everything else is rather moot."

Mikalmas nods.

Mikalmas says, "That's my opinion."

Mandral nods.

Haedahl quietly says, "Don't forget the undead."

Speaking softly to Jodeco, Mandral asks, "Do you share this opinion of Gosaena?"

Haedahl looks thoughtfully at Jodeco.

Jodeco quietly says, "To a large degree, yes."

Speaking to Haedahl, Mikalmas says, "I have released many of your slithery God's trapped souls.  And I take great pleasure in it."

Speaking softly to Jodeco, Mandral asks, "Do you have more to add?"

Jodeco quietly says, "Not presently, thank you."

Mandral nods.

Haedahl quietly says, "But it should bring such solace to know going beyond the gate is not the end."

Ereker settles his gaze on Haedahl, watching her intently.

Mandral softly asks, "And, I don't believe we yet have anyone brave enough to speak of Luukos. Is there anyone that would like to share there opinion of why Lorminstra would be the goddess of death... and life?"

Mandral agrees with Haedahl.

Speaking to Mandral, Raelee says, "... I am willing to discuss Luukos."

Linaine glances between Mandral and Haedahl.

Mandral softly asks, "Oh?"

Mandral turns to face Raelee.

Mandral softly says, "Please, do."

Mandral nods.

Raelee says, "To be clear, I am not arguing that Luukos is the singular deity of death.  I do not necessarily agree that there is only one who controls that domain."

Raelee says, "But, I do think that in the context of this debate it is important to define what qualifies as the domain of death."

Eoghain agrees with Raelee.

Mandral softly says, "If there is one, yes."

Mandral agrees with Raelee.

Raelee says, "Often when you speak to someone of a 'death' - they often first think of the moment of, rather than the existance after."

Raelee says, "There is a common belief in the Empire which, despite being raised there myself, I do not necessarily support."

Raelee says, "But I believe it illustrates this well."

Linaine whispers something to Mikalmas.

Raelee says, "Some Imperial schools of thought preach of the concept of Koargard - the land in which Lorminstra ushers souls to after death."

Raelee says, "Those who gave their feality and faith to Lornon are cursed to roam the cold lands below, and those who followed Liabo are ushers to the golden lands above - warmed by the light of Koar."

Eoghain rolls his eyes.

Raelee says, "Lorminstra delivers the soul, but ultimately the soul continues in the realm of Koar."

Raelee asks, "In that belief structure, would Koar not qualify as the god of death?"

Eoghain mutters something about humanity.

Mandral softly says, "Perhaps."

Mandral nods slowly.
>peer rae
You peer quizzically at Raelee.

Raelee says, "That said, approximately thirteen years ago I had a most engaging conversation with a sea wight."

Raelee says, "If you want a fascinating perspective on death, discuss it with the undead."

Mikalmas says, "I'm not sure I would consider the undead in the realm of death, exactly.  But that's semantics. And those in the grey are more comfotable with those."

Mikalmas grins at Raelee.

Raelee says, "When she spoke of 'death' she spoke of it as the opposite of life - a form of existing, not an end to existing."

Speaking to Mikalmas, Raelee says, "From her perspective, she spoke of her 'death' as you today might speak of your life."

Mikalmas nods at Raelee.

Linaine softly says, "I would submit that Koar is the god of rebirth, with that description."

Haedahl quietly says, "She must have been happy to be useful after her mortal life ended."

Raelee says, "My point being - it may not be the one who sees our moment of death or ushers us to wherever we may go afterwards."

Speaking softly to Mikalmas, Mandral says, "I feel this entire night will be grey."

Mandral adopts an agreeable expression.

Dirvy softly says, "I would think that makes Koar a keeper of souls, rather than a god of death.  It is Lorminstra who decides if you stay or go.  She is the door, he is the house."

Raelee says, "... but whoever holds domain over our existance after the point of death."

Raelee says, "And that can be Luukos in many, many cases."

Mikalmas nods at Mandral.

Haedahl nods once.

Clunk peers quizzically at Raelee.

Speaking softly to Clunk, Mandral says, "Ask  your question."

Raelee raises an eyebrow in Clunk's direction.

Mikalmas asks, "Something to ponder before Clunk speaks. If Lorminstra decides, how does Gosaena already know?"

Mikalmas grins.

Clunk deeply asks, "So when drake fall and die? and become Arkati destine to go to Lornon?  who gots relam of drake death?"

Dirvy whispers something to Mikalmas.

Speaking to Mikalmas, Raelee says, "Predestination and will are concepts that are often at odds, logically speaking."

Clunk peers quizzically at Raelee.

Speaking to Clunk, Raelee says, "I believe you might need a scholar of a different discipline for that answer."

Mikalmas says, "The realm of the death of all living things beyond the ebon gate is clearly defined.  Now, how you define death is indeed an interesting twist, and one I had not considered before the night began, honestly."

Mandral agrees with Mikalmas.

Mandral softly says, "I think that might dictate the differences in belief here, it seems thus far."

Mikalmas agrees with Mandral.

Linaine softly says, "Gosaena knows when the soul will be prevented from returning. Finality is her domain. She defines when death is final."

Raelee says, "Perhaps that is the true core of the debate."

Mikalmas says, "I define death as the final passing."

Mikalmas nods at Linaine.

Speaking softly to Raelee, Mandral says, "Thank you for speaking on behalf of Luukos, and adding what appears to be another dimension to this debate."

Mandral smiles.

Linaine nods in agreement at Mikalmas.

Lord Thrassus just arrived, striding along.

Raelee nods at Mandral.

Speaking to Mandral, Raelee says, "Of course."

Mandral softly asks, "Before Eoghain speaks of Eli, is there anyone that would like to share their views regarding Lorminstra?"

Eoghain blinks.

Mikalmas says, "I cannot believe there are no Lorminstra clerics here."

Mikalmas grins.

Mikalmas says, "As many as I see walking the streets."

Mikalmas says, "Or, Lorminstrans.  I shouldn't define cleric."

Linaine softly says, "Lorminstra is the feel=good god of death."

Mandral softly asks, "No one then?"

Mandral turns to face Eoghain.

Mikalmas says, "She certainly gets the credit."

Clunk deeply says, "Caint speak zactly for Lorminstra, but she and Luukos gots likeness on the stairs, and best I can tell Gosaena aint there."

Speaking softly to Eoghain, Mandral says, "Then I turn it to you, to share this fourth alternative."

Eoghain asks, "Is death change?"

Eoghain asks, "Is it transition?"

Eoghain asks, "Is it growth?"


Eoghain asks, "Is it an ending? A beginning?"

Dirvy nods at Clunk.

Eoghain continues, "Nothing is permanent."

Eoghain says, "Each day we grow in power, we learn. We become more than we were. Does that ever end? Is Lumnis the true goddess of death? Neh."

Jodeco arches a skeptical eyebrow as he takes in his surroundings.

Nazarr asks, "Lumnis?"

Mandral turns an inquisitive ear toward Eoghain.

Eoghain asks, "How many deaths has each of us died? Did we learn? Is death a secret knowledge?"

As Eoghain shakes his head, small flakes of ash fall slowly toward the ground.

Eoghain says, "The Arkati are mortal. They took over for the drakes who were killed by the ur daemons. Each were more powerful than the arkati that the lesser races call gods. But we elves know better. It was our kind who discovered the truth."

Eoghain pedantically says, "The Arkati are...limited. They are stuck. They do not grow. They barely change. They are static. Repeating the sa,e patterns over and over again. They are fragments of a broken mirror through which we may, in time, glimpse our true selves."

Eoghain says, "Think. Can Lorminstra judge a soul and hand it over to Luukos? Can she make them undead? I can."

Linaine gazes knowingly into the darkness beyond.

Eoghain says, "Can Luukos receive an undead, and free it from its prison? Can he hand someone freely over to Lorminstra to be reborn? Doubtful. But I can."

Meril shakes her head.

Mikalmas rolls his eyes.

Eoghain says, "Does Goseana know that any one soul will never move on? Are there any she refuses, or sees nothing on? Are there such immortals that walk this earth, destined for more than even the arkati? The Ur Daemons? The Drakes? I do."

Eoghain says, "The elves do."

Eoghain says, "Power is the only constant, and the great prophet Noi'sho'rah h as taught the elves, despite how ignorant many of us remain, how to pursue it. How to properly contextualize it. How to understand it, to seek it both without and within. He has shown that the arkati are not and never were gods. That true gods do not exist outside of ourselves. Only we, the elven race, have the seeds of true godhood within us. We are whole beings, capable of doing what none before us have done. To continue, to grow, to change, to maintain, and to ascend beyond any of them, when the time is right, and as the great Prophet has done before us in his Ascension."

Eoghain says, "Niether Luukos, Lorminstra, nor Goseana are the true gods of death,"

Mandral turns an inquisitive ear toward Eoghain.

Eoghain says, "True Gods are not pools of power limited in their fuction."

Mandral gives a short little hum of surprise.

Eoghain says, "True gods are forces that grow, change, gian power, and thus permanence, even in their transformation."

Nazarr says, "Even elves die, just as Arkati do. And I do not think I have met any mortal, however good, whom I would deem worthy of godhood. Including myself."

Eoghain says, "They leave wakes in the ether of their existence that trickles down to those below them."

Speaking to Nazarr, Eoghain says, "Give it time."

Eoghain says, "We are the gods, and we always have been."

Speaking softly to Dirvy, Mandral asks, "Do you disagree with Eoghain on this matter?"

Eoghain says, "Let us look not outside of ourselves for what we seek."

Speaking to Eoghain, Mikalmas says, "You remind me why I avoid Dhe'nar whenever I possibly can.  Probably worse than Luukosians."

Eoghain says, "But within, under the guidance of the Prophet."

Speaking softly to Mandral, Dirvy says, "I quite disagree.  Being of an elven family, even if we did grow up in forests, we are, as it is my understanding, the oldest of elves."

Speaking softly to Mandral, Dirvy says, "I do not claim to know or have the ability to return someone to life, determine when their soul makes its final pass through the gates, or have the ability to grant it unlife."

Speaking to Mandral, Eoghain says, "The sylphs are certainly those we respect the most."

Eoghain says, "They had the common sense not to cause or embrace division."

Mandral smiles at Eoghain.

Eoghain says, "They simply missed the boat."

Speaking to Dirvy, Eoghain says, "I have been granted new life many times by many beings."

Speaking to Dirvy, Eoghain says, "I have created the undead even more times."

Eoghain shrugs.

Eoghain says, "We can and do do these things."

Mandral softly asks, "I have to ask, and you may do this one at a time then as this discussion has provided another topic - In three words or less, what is death?"

Speaking softly to Eoghain, Dirvy says, "As have most of us, been returned to life."

Mikalmas says, "The final passing."

Mikalmas says, "That's my definition of death."

Mandral nods at Mikalmas.

Dirvy softly says, "A new chapter."

Mandral nods at Dirvy.

Speaking to Mandral, Eoghain answers, "Growth."

Mikalmas says, "Not transient stuck under a sorcerer's spell, or oops gotta wait on a cleric."

Mandral smiles at Eoghain.

Linaine looks thoughtfully at Mikalmas.

Speaking to Mikalmas, Eoghain says, "Rather wait on an Arkati, eh? I see now why dhu are so old."

Eoghain snickers.

Clunk deeply says, "Dwrf duzznt know."

Haedahl quietly says, "The gateway to the another existence."

Speaking to Eoghain, Mikalmas says, "ANd I understand why you are so arrogant and conceited."

Mikalmas winks at Eoghain.

Speaking to Mikalmas, Eoghain says, "Dhu would be too, if dhu only knew."

Eoghain winks at Mikalmas.

Speaking to Mandral, Raelee says, "... potential post-life state."

Haedahl nods in agreement at Raelee.

Mandral smiles at Raelee.

Clunk glances at Raelee.

Speaking to Eoghain, Mikalmas says, "Your type THINKS you know a lot more than you actually do.  But you and I have had this discussion for decades, and I don't want to bore the rest of the attendees with a public display."

Mikalmas grins at Eoghain.

Mandral softly says, "Any other definitions of death?"

Speaking to Mikalmas, Eoghain says, "Dhu love our public displays, priest."

Eoghain grins mischievously.

Clunk rubs his chin thoughtfully.

Clunk deeply asks, "Turns to mud?"

Eoghain agrees with Clunk.

Mandral softly asks, "So, now I ask and it may be those that just answered, or others as well.... in three words or less, how do you describe life?"

Haedahl quietly says, "I see we've stopped talking about balance and the circle of life."

Clunk deeply exclaims, "Mud to dwarf!"

Eoghain says, "Growth."

Eoghain says, "They are one ah the same."

Linaine softly says, "The accention of consciencness."

Eoghain says, "Each defines the other."

Clunk deeply exclaims, "By Eonaks hand!"

Mandral nods at Eoghain.

You softly say, "The unknowing."

Puptilian says, "Cycle of nature."

Clunk deeply says, "Tiz a short circle."

Mikalmas asks, "Physical manifestation of soul.  "Of" doesn't count as a word, right?"

Mandral nods to you.

Mandral smiles at Puptilian.

Dirvy giggles at Mikalmas.

Speaking to Mandral, Raelee asks, "... in what context are we using the word 'life'?"

Mourne chuckles to himself.

Speaking softly to Mikalmas, Mandral says, "Not this eve, no."

Mikalmas grins.

Speaking to Mandral, Puptilian says, "Easy setup."

Puptilian shrugs.

Haedahl quietly says, "The undead house souls."

Speaking softly to Raelee, Mandral asks, "It is rather open ended, isn't it?"

Speaking to Mikalmas, Eoghain says, "How limited a view of life."

Haedahl shrugs.

Mandral smiles.

Eoghain shakes his head, totally at a loss.

Speaking to Mandral, Raelee says, "It is.  This is one case where the context changes the definition."

Linaine softly says, "The undead souls seek death, not life."

Nazarr says, "Thought. Breath. Will."

Speaking to Linaine, Eoghain says, "Not the ones I animate."

Eoghain winks at Linaine.

Ereker softly says, "I nay dyin'."

Ereker softly says, "It be too complicated."

Ereker nods.

Speaking softly to Raelee, Mandral says, "Then choose whatever context you wish, if you'd like, or leave it undefined by you."

Speaking to Eoghain, Mikalmas says, "Really? You think "change" defines life in any way shape or form.  Change is a PART of life.  and a PART of death.  For sure.  But your narrow focus and arrogance makes you miss the forest for the trees."

Speaking to Mikalmas, Eoghain says, "If dhur kind hadn't clung so ardently to those trees, dhu may have not suffered Despana."

Mandral softly says, "I know Clunk said a few words regarding Lorminstra, but is there anyone else that would like to plead a case for her and build upon his words?"

Dirvy softly interrupts, "Life is just another chapter.  Elves live many human lifetimes, and we can fill a great number of books.  In the life of an elf, there are many chapters, because life cannot be defined by so few words.  We are not as we were 100 years ago... 1000 years ago.  Life is many."

Dirvy grins sheepishly.

Jodeco quietly says, "I believe death can be temporary or permanent.  We have all suffered the temporary and have returned.  However, we also have lost friends who will never return - this is the final death of non-existance. Gosaena is the Goddess of this Final Death."

Mandral smiles at Dirvy.

Dirvy softly says, "It is a shame the Lady Enestrie could not be in attendance tonight.  She is a fervent follower of Lady Lorminstra, and I have heard her speak before."

Mikalmas says, "I find it highly unlikely anyone in this room hasn't been touched in some way shape or form by the final death."

Eoghain asks, "What is a god, really?"

Eoghain asks, "An idea?"

Eoghain asks, "A concept?"

Clunk bows.

Eoghain waves his hand in a dismissive gesture.

Mandral softly says, "I will begin to draw a conclusion to my moderation of this discussion, but I encourage you all to continue the debate if you choose. I will ask that regardless of your beliefs, you remain respectful."

Nazarr says, "I am not a Lorminstran, but this I do know--whether you have favors or not, have pledged yourself to her faith or not, she appears when we die, to lead us back to life or not. I think that it says something that she will appear even if we have not obtained her favor, so to speak."

Dirvy softly says, "A god is someone who can do things we earth-walkers cannot."